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Career Talk: MBA After Medicine

Jun 17 | 3:00 PM

With the need for medical administrators and doctor CEOs on the rise, every year, hundreds of doctors enroll in premier business schools. To pursue a career that’s an amalgamation of both medicine and business can be rewarding, but doctors can often be unsure about the combination. Let's explore the path and some exciting opportunities available at the end of an MBA journey. Join Dr. Rohan Desai , Dr. Nikhil Hegde & Dr. Kunal Joshi for an amazing panel discussion where they will spill some secrets about their preparation strategies and B-School life & interesting career paths.

as we all know we are here to discuss about our career talk mba after medicine even i uh explored it it was kind of eureka moment i had not heard about anyone who had gone for mba after mbps and reaction at home was kind of uh different like what you want to go to mba who has this it was like this i don't know what was at your front uh but let's talk about that when we delve into the conversation uh so today uh we have doctor nikhil hey with us dr kunal yoshi and dr rohan desai nikhil comes from the joker drive for those who don't know what does that uh joke is the place where i am see it's situated and uh there's one interesting thing when uh they have to shout out imc inc they will do joke am i right nikhil yeah absolutely absolutely i think uh way tightened community and he has completed his mbps from pnmc and nayar hospital mumbai and currently working as a consultant at bean one of the top three consulting firms uh in the world mbb other two being mckinsey bcg everyone kind of thrives to be in mbv if i'm not wrong all people that who go for nmba uh we have dr kunal doshi with us he completed his mbbs uh from sdmc called medic college of medical science and uh completed his mba from spjon institute of management and research and uh before uh going on to lead branding at astrazeneca he worked as a senior product manager at johnson and johnson and finally we have dr rohan desai with us who is the idea and uh driving force behind this thoughtful platform uh dr rohan is an alumni of uh uh i am in the institute of management and the bad and currently uh he's the founder and ceo of plexus md he has laid lot of numerous healthcare engagements before starting his entrepreneurial venture and uh today uh before we delve into the topic i'll actually go segment wise uh i want nikhil you to address some cad preparation and some strategies and why you chose consulting i'll go for the founding journey to rohan sir and some better career opportunities or some excellent or some different career opportunities to kunal so before we delve into the conversation nikhil i want you to address the elephant in the room if i am a doctor and how do i know if mba is for me like what are the traits uh what are those common traits uh someone should look for inside me like i want to go for an mba uh is it like being extrovert matters or is it something different uh what is your take on that great great no first of all uh you know rocha thank you andrew and thank you for you know having me on this uh really exciting to be speaking to you know some of the budding doctors of this country especially on you know such a topic uh wherein uh there are you know alternate career paths and opportunities for them i think first and foremost uh you know you need to build up to it so essentially you need to figure out uh it's not a decision on whether you want to do an mba it's a decision on whether you want to do or go into clinical practice versus a non-clinical field because even in the entire universe of the non-clinical practice similar to you know all the super specialties you have specialties and super specialties you have there are different paths that you can take right so there is uh you know health administration there is business management there is a research degree etc so once you've narrowed it down to you know going down a non-clinical path well you need to figure out whether you want to you know stay in the healthcare domain whether you want to explore you know opportunities outside of the healthcare domain and that you know is a journey that helps you narrow down your path uh obviously uh you know a lot of you guys will have a friends family uh who have you know done engineering done commerce and gone on to do an mba uh so you know potentially mba is a neutral degree uh anybody can get that at any point of time in their lives uh it's you know immediately after college if they've done a three-year bcom course or a bb a course you can go and get an mba and if you've been a practicing clinician or if you've been an engineer for 10 15 years of your life you can still go and get an mba it's a it's a neutral but as a person i'm asking you as a person like what are what are the threats like uh if i'm an extrovert if i'm doing some work or in events at my college or that kind of threats one should look for mba is a neutral degree anyone can do that definitely but are there any personal traits uh so i have uh you know friends who are both introverts and extroverts who have gone to this profession uh obviously you know public speaking having uh leadership positions in your college and uh you know being part of events etc and overall uh having you know uh being attuned to business ideas and being attuned to new ideas helps build your esu mate to take you on this path but you know that should not stop stop anybody from pursuing it right uh if you've made up your mind on you want to switch you want to go into non-clinical uh the only thing you need to do is invest time and effort in building your credentials and building your aptitude towards uh getting into an mba so no no specific uh skill set required but you can build up to it uh you know take part in extracurricular activities because that definitely shows a well-balanced profile right so they look at academics they look at a good academic build they look at uh you know good man or a business leader uh so leadership skills they look at you know what kind of positions or responsibilities you've had and uh you know kunal rohan i would love for you guys to chip in here as well yeah i think uh this is a very good question to start with because uh i will go ahead and answer things like how do you crack that uh what is life like in the school what do they teach what are career options but the most important question at the beginning which a lot of people faces is it even for me and how do i know if it is for me um so uh you know obviously there is no uh algorithm uh which will answer this question for you and and like nikhil said uh you probably have to figure it out gradually and it starts probably with a very simple fork which says are you a very clinical oriented person and if not then there are this pharmacy you could do psm you could do management you could do public services you could do public health you could do uh so that is one way to look at it um but i uh i just want i mean a lot of people uh when they uh uh message me uh they uh one of the questions is that how do i know if this is a crush or love so what if uh you know a month later i'm no longer in love with this idea of management and what if it was just a momentary infatuation [Music] and how do we make sure so again i can't help you make sure but i can definitely tell you that this is very very important to make sure it's it's an important decision uh and um so what one uh a friend i mean a junior had once approached me and um she was preparing for cat uh and she said so what should be my uh so so she said uh cat is my backup option uh to pg uh and that's something i you know think is very dangerous uh so so by the time you are at a point where you have to either take need pg or cat or if you are a practicing doctor already then that's not a problem but if you are a final year student or a pre-final student or an intern right now i would uh suggest committing to one of the two uh and not really trying to put your feet in both places because you will most likely under achieve both relative to what you could have done if you had just focused so uh but there is no trade so again what i have seen as common uh between people who like so people like nikhil kunal i've interacted with say a dozen or maybe 30 40 people who've actually done mbbs and then go ahead gone ahead and done mba from good places i think what is common uh in their story is that uh during some some point in the mbbs curriculum they realize that they want to do something at a large scale um so so a lot of these stories start from that key we want to do something at scale uh uh we want to touch a million lives or you know a nation whole nation uh and uh i mean it's not a necessity to be an extrovert but these people tend to be more outspoken and like like he mentioned public speaking right so um so people generally who like to uh dabble in various things uh people have been taking short courses so if you are one of those kinds uh who's been doing a lot of event management uh taking a lot of short courses at every possible opportunity uh very curious about things uh generally like stories around business or startups etc then you should i mean it could be for you uh having said that when you ask me can i give cat can i clear cat can i start a venture uh my answer is always very simple yes um there is no no at all uh you know it's it's a once you make up your mind you can do it everybody can do it uh anybody who's here right now can 100 right and clear cat it's about preparing going through the you know best practices and everything but there is no no at all there is no contraindication xyz person cannot do it a first generation guy can do it a second generation guy can do it i come from a doctor family uh maybe kunal or nikhil don't come from doctor families uh rucha doesn't come from a doctor family so there is nothing he you know there is nothing like that there's no curiosity do you have any suggestions on this front uh about the characters that yes absolutely absolutely absolutely i mean let me uh first of all thank uh midfield's team uh for inviting me uh on this particular platform and if if there is anyone who can do an mba or crack cat i think it's a doctor to be honest uh i mean we all know how hard we train during our undergraduate and postgraduate days and i think if if someone can crack it in the first attempt i think it it should be a doctor that's for sure now having said that i i also don't urge people uh you know to do an mba especially doctors now uh it is a bit counter intuitive what i am telling right now but there is a sense to what i am trying to say i mean mba or mbbs or an md let's say medicine or pharmac or any of the degree is basically a platform uh to what you want to do in life how you want to take your life forward having said that what what i feel personally is you know from an mba perspective any uh a doctor let's say he runs his own clinic or he is working in a hospital or a center there are certain basic management principles which they need to know let's say an inventory management or some basic finance management or supply chain management or logistics which of course a doctor will learn let's say a clinic clinician who has set up his own clinic will learn over a period of 25-30 years and he would be a pro and i i would call him an mba even without doing an mba because he would have already you know established a setup and has been working in this space what exactly this particular you know mba gives you as a doctor is you know it will really help you widen your horizon i mean the thought process the whole networking ability which yes the doctors should basically you know kind of get into a course like mba having said that it is completely up to the personal choice on what they want to do in their life i would urge say a clinician who has practiced for 10 years not to switch his or her profession but just to gain more knowledge on how they can manage patients how they can reduce the waiting time in their clinic how they can optimize their resources their profits i think these are the things which a physician will definitely learn if they do an mba now there are people like me uh you know like needle of course like rohan who has switched completely and this is a complete class of breed of doctors who have moved from what they've been doing and doing something different and there lies a larger purpose uh like rightly what rohan said i think it's the purpose which drives us i mean today uh if i look back 10 years ago one thing which i was very sure was i cannot do something for at least two years continuously so i need a change so i think that is where i decided that medicine is not my cup of tea practicing would not be something which i would be able to do because i want to learn new things i want to meet new people and that brought me to this particular area of you know being uh preparing for the care so that's my short journey but definitely we can discuss this along with yes what after the question on should i do mba is always a question of can i clear cat and i completely agree with him if anyone can clear it it is doctors with her rigorous academic study and the way we are trained to work hard and everything i think it's really doable uh just coming back to the point on mba uh all doctors need to be managers uh they aren't managers so uh uh i mean i i slightly disagree with what kunal said um so uh a doctor who runs a hospital has to do finance and hr and marketing and analytics and strategy but i don't think he's trained to do that or able to do that and i strongly recommend an mba in fact i recommend it to the extent of saying it should be part of the medical curriculum at least some of the subjects as electives should be part of the mbbs curriculum uh but they are extremely important and uh so i mean i have gotten a lot of value from the mba program uh both academically but one of the things he said that it really opens up your mind uh i think that was crucial uh and one undeniable values in the network uh that you can create so uh within medicine we have a very strong network we have very well networked with our colleagues who will go ahead and become specialists in different fields that's already an asset you build when you go through your mbbs uh curriculum now as an mba you can build an entirely different network uh of people who will be in consulting in finance and marketing uh in technology so uh i i think it does serve uh some very uh significant value but yeah go ahead that's very insightful so uh i mean a doctor is an entrepreneur uh in himself right like setting up a clinic and setting up an entire business and running a practice and managing all the finances and all of that you know definitely requires some entrepreneurial hustle and uh you know even uh while i've consulted with you know some of the top hospital chains in the country what we've seen is there are you know doctors who've become specialists who have practiced for 10 15 years then they've gotten and you know they've gone and gotten their mba to manage those you know big hospital setups while simultaneously practicing so during the day uh their job is either a pediatrician or a radiologist off and providing clinical services while you know the rest of their day job is managing uh you know the rest of the doctors in that hospital as well so yeah you know definitely or an important asset to have thank you so let's move on to the preparation uh where like all doctors like kind of stuck up how do i prepare where do i start was the curriculum so we have three sections uh verbal ability quantitative ability and dlr section so con is kind of everyone gets freaked out i haven't studied maths for like six years now and how am i going to believe even i freak up like as if i have to compete with sagandala devi at mental math so this is the kind of reaction i have right now as well so uh tell us about the curriculum how do you go about it what was your schedule during the preparation nickel yeah so uh it was spread between quant uh dilr and verbal and you know a lot of the mistakes that people make is i've not studied math for six years so let me focus all my time on math but if you're innately good at verbal you should you know give uh an appropriate amount of time there as well because this is not like your need pg where you need to score a 95 out of 100 or or you know get a high uh number you just essentially need to do better than a lot of the other people and it's balanced across right so if you're really good at verbal yeah so uh essentially uh you know focus equally like thirty three percent on quant thirty three percent on dilr and thirty three percent on verbal because if you can maximize your verbal score where your strength lies you're reading books of literature you're reading you know you're learning other languages when you're essentially studying medicine so you know you're innately wired to do well there you should focus on that and maximize that as well having said that uh you know would not underscore the amount of practice that is required for quant and that is required for dilr and it's a completely you know practice game right math is a practice game uh i know many of you guys would have skipped out on biostatistics in the second year uh but uh you know all of us have studied math till the 10th and the curriculum is limited to 10 standard math so you've got your you know geometry you've got your space time uh speed time and you know your work equations and all of us have studied this till the 10th uh you know it's hardwired into us in from school where we've you know been uh all it requires is to practice what the application of these uh things that we've learned right so simple things like pythagoras theorem that we've learned can be applied in many different ways simple uh you know geometry that we've learned about circle can be applied in different ways and speed into time which is you know a universal equation can be applied in different ways it's all about uh the different sums that come practicing that is what's essential to you know getting a grip on math and getting a grip on bi and i don't know if this was different uh when kunali or rohan took the exam actually uh right now like you appeared for cat like four five years back but when rohan sir was there it was very uncertain right now it's very clear to us that we'll have three sections and this section will come after this kind of but uh when rohan sir appeared it was totally uncertain and right now again with this pandemic everything has become uncertain we have like two hours of exam and again that uncertainty is back so i want to hear on that front uh rohan sir how you dealt with it so um yeah it used to be very uncertain and what she means by uncertainty is that till the day of cat you wouldn't know how many questions are going to be asked how many sections are going to be there what is the plus minus ratio plus 4 minus 1 plus 5 minus 1 what's the ratio how many options are there and so on uh over over years i think they got into a some sort of a consistent pattern uh but but that doesn't matter so uh i think uh we have to understand that uh cat is a test of a lot of things uh but strong quantitative skill they don't test strong quantitative skills at all so if you will pick up a random cat paper you will find a lot of questions which are extremely overwhelming okay you would be like even after working for a year i don't think i can have the bandwidth to cover all such questions but cat is a lot more than that one question so one it is a test of how you manage your time uh in the paper uh and also in the three months before the paper the six months before the paper so it's a it's a very strong time management test uh it's a very strong pressure management test a lot of amazingly talented people uh completely uh lose their uh calm uh it's like a 2020 match it's very unfair um unlike gmat which you can take repeatedly or whenever you want i mean not repeatedly but whenever you want a cat happens once in a year and it immense pressure on people um so it's a pressure management test uh every paper if it has 100 questions it will have 40 easy questions 100 you need to go and find those 40 easy questions and score them and guess what's the cutoff uh to get into one of the good items 40. so i am not trying to over simplify or over trivialize the level of complete difficulty in cad it's definitely a moderately difficult paper but i think we make it tougher than it actually is because we try to compete with engineers on their turf uh we try to get into the depth of maths you shouldn't do that so i i had a lot of different ways of handling cad questions one consistent way which has always worked is to think of every question in the paper as a logical reasoning question not as an english question or a math question you try to reason okay why they are asking this question why they are giving this option and which option seems to be the odd man out out of the four options now this is obviously not a cat solving seminar and i don't i don't want to go into too much depth about how to various ways of tackling questions so but i'm just saying it's not really about the math the math you know uh the math you need to know can be acquired in a month or maybe two months uh or so worst case scenario you're really uh then three months or four months we have more time than that available right we're willing to dedicate about eight ten months of preparation normal preparation like five hours a day six hours a day and then last two months you give it your best shot like 10-12 hours a day uh so uh logical reasoning uh think about every question think about the faculty why they put that question uh second extremely lame way of solving uh if trial and error so a very lame way of solving questions is by just substituting the five options in the question formula nothing it's it's super lame and when you do that you'll feel like you're cheating uh but this is a time management stress management game and um i have a favorite story uh for some other day which is the david versus goliath story uh in this in this game you are david uh you are the underdog uh the engineers are goliaths uh you cannot play with them on mathematical proficiency keep that in mind uh you will have to play with them on hard work which you are really good at uh on creativity uh on jugaad on shortcuts on luck everything uh but so trial and error is one example now for all your geometry questions uh you will say s just keep a few measurements in your hand so a one rupee coin you should know you know what's the radius or diameter of that one rupee coin just draw it there or rocha was telling me last time that they don't even allow you to take a 1 rupee coin to the center now so whatever you you can take your thumb right so you figure out this this thumb of mine is 2 centimeters and then just physically draw the problem uh so i'm just what i'm trying to emphasize is there are a lot of ways to solve these questions other than the complicated formula or the 10 step derivations which you think are required so uh don't over stress practice when you practice and give lots of mock ads you will come across these questions and these typical patterns again and again now when you take the exam let's say again for simply speak at 100 questions your you know cat papers are set by i am faculty i am faculty love research they don't love setting papers so trust me this is not their favorite job so they are not going to spend a lot of time trying to give you 100 new questions 100 may say at least 40 to 50 questions are questions you would have seen in the last five years or 10 years or in the best mock cats that your time or career launcher or whatever give you only 10 15 questions every year are like completely fresh completely innovative just avoid them you don't so this is not your 12th standard and you don't have to bring a gold medal here you don't have to score a 99 out of 100 marks you have to score a 99 percentile and for a 99 percentile you just need about 40 marks uh that's how low it is so my score was uh 148 something 140 to 148 out of 300. so my percentage score was less than 50 if the percentile was 99.95 right so uh you you don't have to get everything right uh so when you start preparing uh we'll probably have a separate session significantly in that session on how to do it and again we can have uh nikhil also and kunal on on on some of their trip tips and tricks and all but the point is don't get overwhelmed rohan you kind of simplified a lot of things i i would want to simplify it a step further you know by by giving my jugaad you know basically any doctor who aspires to even appear you know go out and by in those days it was by now you can download the cbse the mathematics textbook class seven eight nine i think that's more than enough and if you want you can buy uh differential calculus is something which they don't ask so you don't need to worry about all those things they are basic uh problems which you can solve and there is this whole english you know norman levis book called word power made easy i think you can buy that just by the hang of this say you read these books for 15 20 days you will realize whether you are i want to give an analogy here you know we all have our mobile phones right a mobile phone has a memory which is like 64 gb or 128 gb and there is this ram which is basically 6 gb ram 8gb ram i don't know what is the latest one now so when i look at or discuss you know think about a neat pg we need more of memory because we remember a lot of things we memorize lot of things and then you know reproduce it in our uh but where you need that access of random access memory or ram basically you will need that space to calculate the time to calculate so what i would urge is maybe you can move because i know if i throw a character at you you will come up with a complete mockup of that in one week the kind of study which we do as doctors but at the same time if there is a case based discussion which is happening in a neat pg i mean nowadays need to devise and i think that is what is very critical when it comes to solving or getting into this space because it's not just the exam it is also the gdpi which matters you know need to make a sig you just give a link pg and you are done you will get a rank you will get a seed unlike cat where you will even if you are let's say 99 percentile you might not get a ima because you did not crack the you know gdpr so nikhil you said uh you started your preparation during internship i can just imagine how you dealt with the pressure every day postings and so what roadmap would you suggest to everyone who is actually preparing for cat so do you think it is better to have one or two years of work x and then go for an mba uh or is it like directly after mbbs what are you what is your take on that so uh yeah personally uh i did it immediately after mbbs but again like you know uh given that a lot of people study from state uh medical colleges and government medical colleges there is you know effectively the bond year that you have to serve and sometimes it can range from you know one year to three years in different states so effectively uh you know you can go ahead and clear the bond especially if you don't want to break it and pay it off and you know that would count as work experience in your career having said that uh again this will sound very ambiguous but there is you know no no uh you know that shadi payback 35 all of that doesn't come and apply to an mba right you can do it immediately after your mbbs uh i've had friends who have uh you know done their mbbs done their md uh practice as a doctor for three years and then uh done a one year mba course and have you know come and joined the company as well and i've had people like myself who've you know joined mbbs immediately after uh it doesn't matter which which uh you know part of your career or curriculum you're in right now you can do an mba at any point of time uh having said that in terms of a road map uh effectively uh like rohan said you need about two to three months of you know peak prep for for math right uh and given you know you'll be balancing uh your either your internship or your you know finally your exams or you know full-time day job uh anywhere between seven to eight months is good to practice and then peak uh in the month of october november when you're effectively giving the exam so uh you can start around april may and then focus a lot during october november this is what you suggest so i would uh also uh urge that you start preparing on english a lot earlier so english might be your over confident area so while the entire focus is hawked by math you might end up actually failing english because the level of english in the paper is reasonably high and or maybe our level of english that we were born and brought up speaking is reasonably low so and especially because of the english thing now so um i think if you can start preparing for english at least a year and a half in advance it would be very useful and you don't have to prepare in the sense you don't have to take textbooks or join courses or anything but just read good english i mean british content so i used to subscribe i mean i used to uh read the guardian newspaper a lot every day um and because even a lot of times the paragraphs that come for comprehension uh are from foreign authors are from philosophers uh and you know the british english is the original english and uh undoubtedly the unadulterated english so um so and english is something which you won't be able to fix in the last two months uh maths you'll be able to fix in two months if you're really not that good you can still ramp it up very rapidly match is very objective english is very tough so start english as soon as possible as early as possible and again don't forget to tackle english with a logical reasoning mindset uh english questions also whether they are para numbers where they have comprehensions uh you have to you will find the answer trust me once you start practicing and once you start looking at papers with this eye and with this mindset without using technical english you will start finding that q so you'll at least start coming down from four options to two options you will at least second a they're just completely trying to fool me they're just completely out of place now you're down to two take one of them doesn't matter you know uh when uh when you get plus four for a correct answer and minus one for a wrong answer if you're down to two options you're scoring so just take one of them as soon as you can come down to two options but if you think it's going to take you a lot more time to narrow down to one option then don't waste that time narrowing down to one option click a arb doesn't matter right so uh it is very very logical you have to look at every question saying why this question is being asked why this option is being put and so on so anyway again let's please schedule a separate conversation on how to uh crack cat uh just one point on uh uh working and then giving cat if you want to apply for a usb school you can't get in as a fresher uh they will they will want five years of work x uh four five six years of work x depending on where you're going so so either that could be either a pg workers uh the advantage of that is that it keeps you safe anything happened and you're still a post graduate and you still have a clinical proper career in hand the other thing you could do is if you're if you're absolutely clear then you could just leave then don't pursue residency uh go and get good three four year work ex as a uh in some consulting firm or in a health tech platform health tech company anywhere just get good workex and then after three four years you give your gmat and go ahead in india in indian schools most of them i mean are happy to accept freshness right so they're not anti-workers but they're happy to accept freshers uh something which foreign schools are not even for indian schools yeah they're happy to work but what do you think you both have like uh graduated from so my uh one of my personal uh regrets uh is that i didn't have workouts before going to ima uh i think uh if i had one year of workouts or two years of workouts and good quality workouts not not saying you know being a medical officer and that won't be relevant in this sense uh so so good quality workouts would be if i was working with say uh obeying if they had taken me as an analyst obviously not as a consultant but if a consulting firm would have taken me uh or if a practo would have hired me as a as an analyst or as a clinical specialist or as a researcher anything is okay right uh but if i would have spent one or two years uh before joining ima i think i would have derived tremendous value out of ime i had a great time i did derive good value i i got placed all right i understood a few concepts but i know now that if i had gone in with a little bit of work x i think i would have been able to relate to what they are teaching significantly better so um but yeah other cats will have to take it right so uh if you clear it in your internship here it's a 2020 you could be the world's best team and you can't say my dosa because what if you don't clear it after two years um so so that could happen to you and then it's a really tough call so fortunately some of these campuses so even ima have started doing deferrals so i can clear cad this year and i can defer my admission to the next academic year so i get a year to work in between so that is great that is amazing if you get that option by all means go for that option nikhil there are a lot of aspirants who are from iit and some srcc like background and they have advantage of uh having seen the industry during their uh midterm internships or they have some of them have cleared like cfa level three and we just go with our clinical sets so what qualities or uh what kind of skill set do you suggest uh we should have before we go for an mba is there anything specific oh so i think uh rohan you know summarized it really well uh in the first point right like on how how do you assess that you are somebody who has the traits for an mba and you know a lot of that goes into building uh what will help you get the edge over others during an mba so you know short courses public speaking leadership positions uh and you know if you've got the opportunity one to two years of you know working in uh the corporate sector either with like a health tech startup or in a consultancy firm all of these things will you know definitely help you build up uh you know your both your attributes as well as your understanding of you know how the business side of things work back in mbbs i had no idea i did not even know the full form of the word uh you know mba but uh when i you know decide that i want to get into a non-clinical field uh i did go on udemy i did go on coursera uh you know looked up a couple of courses in terms of you know what is marketing what is finance uh in like the second or third year of my mbbs as well uh you know i i started studying about the stock market like you know why uh what is this screen that everybody watches on the news a channel every day started to understand a bit about that so even though it did not you know help me uh uh to an extent uh to crack the cat uh and secure an admission uh it gave me a lot of talking points during interviews uh for the admission as well as with companies right that these are the uh you know uh attributes that i have these are the courses that i've pursued and these are the avenues that i've explored which is why i've come to a logical conclusion because uh each of my interviews whether it was for admission whether it was a you know job offer etc was why have you made the switch from an mbbs to an mba right what were you thinking about it and you know that has been a generational question i've had so many people ask so many of my friends uh i can see uh rohan you know nodding vigorously there uh but that is uh an existential question that you know all the interviewers asked because 99 of the people that they interview are from an engineering background or from a commerce background so even you know they are surprised so build that story explore those avenues and you know build those attributes so that you've got a coherent reason as to why you've shifted right like you've explored startups you've explored the stock market you've explored the business side of things and that's how you've built your foundation and your interest right understood uh i have one more question for you like you had decent gmat score as well uh but why didn't you opt for foreign b-schools and choose to be cured at times i gave the gmat after i gave the cat uh so i already had the i am calcutta you know admission offer in hand and i you know just just gave the gmat because i'd already prepped and you know majority of the syllabus was overlapping but uh this again ties into the point that rohan made a while back that you require a certain amount of work experience to you know get into a foreign b school so while uh colleges like yale harvard have a young leaders program where you know in your final year of your education you can you know give the gmat up here for it and uh defer your admission by two years so it's called a two plus two program in certain cases it's called a young leaders program especially for isb yale etc where you can uh you know defer your admission by two years work for those two years uh and you know join the colleges you require a minimum threshold of two years of work experience to get into these four in these goods and you know obviously i was impatient uh but uh high insight is 20 20 right uh looking back if i had you know hustled maybe started up uh experimented with something i had nothing to do for those two years i could have worked with startups i could have worked uh you know with nursing homes hospitals etc and built those skills and then gone for a foreign b-school but inside 2020 i was impatient wanted to get him quickly and i was like uh you know best way for a fresher to do this is that thanks can we take some questions so does one year executive mba program have lesser value than two-year mba uh there is a difference between one year executive mba and the whole mba or the pg team which we call it a two-year residential course now let's say you are a doctor you have worked for say five years at least or you have done your mbbs and then md and then worked for say four or five years so now you experience what resources we can go for or to start a cat trip in your ug life uh so i think like conal said earlier right download the 7th to 10 cbse textbooks and then you've got arun sharma which is you know a good book for for quant as well and uh for english i think there are a couple of books again word power made easy is definitely your go-to book uh but you can pick up you know a couple of other resources there are common cat forums available so whichever the latest books people are referring to for verbal you can pick those up uh having said that uh you know even if you can borrow some books uh from like your friends relatives etc who've taken up coaching who've taken up coaching right with either ims time or career launcher those books are useful as well just to practice questions but the foundation can be built with cbse seven to ninth uh macbooks yeah and uh sorry yeah and like rohan said uh definitely read the editorials of newspapers or they will you know definitely a help you build your normal knowledge overall and also sharpen your english uh so kunal you were telling us about the executive mba which is better you answer can you tell us about if mha if there is any difference between mba and mha uh does it matter which one to choose what's exactly this so um one i have taken the mba course so i'm probably not the best person to tell the difference and second i'm definitely biased for nba so keep that in mind i think if you want if you're very clear that you want to have a career in hospital administration so if you want to if you uh clearly visualize yourself as somebody who will join a large corporate group like apollo grow up the ranks um become a vp finance or vp medical relations become a ceo someday then an mha is a decent option uh mba stills allows that right so so that's why i think mba is uh a one step safer than mhm because it allows you to take a decision a little little later or even change your decision another thing i have always said it is um [Music] i could be completely wrong here because i'm not really an expert on mha but [Music] if a non-doctor goes into an mha program it's very useful to the non-doctor because that person is coming from let's say a bsc background a bsc microbiology background or a become background or an engineering background all of them can go for mhm right so but we as doctors we've spent five and a half years in the hospital you've seen some parts you won't have seen a lot so i think we can add more value to ourselves by getting into a broader based mba program uh but having said that if if you definitely are clear that you want a health care delivery side so in a diagnostic chain in a hospital chain in quality uh in supply chain in medical uh stuffing recruiting then mha is an equally good option for you so it's really what you want to do you know i live across the road from tiss which is one of the leading mha programs in the country uh and you know like like you said rohan uh one of my friends who's done an mha from abroad uh she's you know currently uh in an administrative role at bombay hospital so supervising nurses super supervising clinical delivery you know uh especially during these corporate times allocating covert beds figuring out your supply demand and all of that so it's it's a purely you know delivery role while when you do an mba you get into more of a strategic role where you're making you know long-term decisions uh where do we open up a new hospital especially if you're in the healthcare side of things right where do we open up a new hospital and i think kunal can also talk about his pharma experience in terms of you know how do you forecast demand how do you you know market to patients uh how do you you know get the uh how do you define the value proposition and brand plan for a product and all of those things so you get into that side of thing versus more of an operational role when you pursue an md uh mha i think i can quickly uh answer the question on executive mba so i think that's what i was trying to you know kind of hint at that if you have a higher work x then you will not be eligible for a pgdm or a full-time mba so definitely you will have to get into an executive mba but say you you are you know more into clinical practice and you don't want to switch your career then definitely executive mba will help you to gain that you know advantage over your peers or colleagues when it comes to managing hospitals uh managing uh you know the the entrepreneurship or any work which you have been doing so definitely i would urge everyone if you get an opportunity i want you to tell us about what are those options e-commerce is the one fmcg companies we can enter into that there is investment banking what all other opportunities lie at the end of it so um what i would uh so if people have you know stayed till long which means they have decided you know that they want to either think of mba or getting into an mba so kudos to that first of all and let me tell you i mean whenever you decide of getting into an mba being a doctor one thing you can be rest assured that you will never go out of work at the end of the day if you lose everything you will still have your stethoscope with you a table and a chair where you can sit and practice so you need not worry about that even today at this point of time i don't shy away from taking risks even in the work which i do because i know that end of the day if if nothing works out i have my littmann step which i bought in 2010 and i can you know sit in my small hometown and practice there but having come so far i think for you if let's say you pursue an mba opportunities are infinite i mean let's let's not just talk about the health care sector you can move into any other sector be it fmcg e-commerce investment banking consulting anything not even related to healthcare i mean i have doctor friends who are into companies like castrol and you know hul and png which means they have completely moved out of the healthcare sector but what what gives you know people this motivation to move out definitely your basic degree which is your mbbs i think that matters a lot to be honest i would say that the degree which you have with you is one of the best degrees which a person can get because you learn a lot of life skills in mbbs only so once you complete your mba the whole healthcare sector is open for you be it pharmaceuticals medical science or the medical devices basically so if i can give you my journey so i started from sales you know i worked as a sales rep after you know being a doctor i worked as a sales rep so you can imagine my situation how i would have you know gone through it but the opportunities are infinite like what i was saying then i moved into marketing i was into brand management i was also slightly into medical affairs role then i got an opportunity into international markets so i was handling sri lanka bangladesh these south asian countries from a strategy and marketing perspective and now i am in a completely different digital transformation space i think i could have never imagined that being an mbbs i i would have got so many opportunities and it's just because of the mba which i have done that i can now think of getting into any of the roles any of the areas where i want to get into i can end up in any of the companies where i aspire to based on my experience right now so it's it's entirely up to the person how you want to build your career shape your career based on your interest so tomorrow let's say you join a company and you don't like that role you still have an option to move into some other role unlike mbbs and then md where you if you are doing some specialization it's very difficult to you know move from a surgical specialization to a non-surgical specialization and vice versa so i think that flexibility will definitely be there so i would urge people to you know explore this opportunity uh you know think broad from a very broad perspective and understand that uh you you can be anything in this particular uh you know space and at the same time try to be as humble as possible being a doctor it doesn't mean that you will get all the goodies and you know nice things on your way like i said i worked as a sales rep to start my career so you can imagine how it would have been how tough it would have been there were doctors who used to tell me that what's wrong with you you can work with me as my assistant why are you doing this but i knew that it's a long term goal so if you do an mba make sure that the initial two three four five years are going to be very very tough and if you cross those four five years i think the whole world is at your you know place to kind of get into anything and that's that's my feedback or commentary so i just wanted to ask you that if i want to work in a corporate immediately after mbbs so like um is there any minute of chances that i can get an internship in a corporate because um you know moving into a non-clinical field is a very big decision so like before i take a long-term decision of completely going non-clinical um can i like get some experience in the corporates so when you say corporate uh when you say corporate you mean any consultancy forms or consultancy forms so nikki or anything even our startup so because honestly like what skills will they look in uh look in me before you know see as a i mean i'll just give you my answer and then kundalini it's a little difficult to get into a good pharma company at an mbbs level uh and it's also a little difficult to get into a top tier consulting firm after mbbs the reason being they have access to a very good post mba pool um so uh so your best your best bet is with startups like us anyone in the country right so any health tech startups will be more than happy to hire doctors on internships or even full-time if you want to spend a year or two the amount of learning is also a lot because it's a very small team trying to solve a very big problem so um this whole netflix platform we created in the last three or four months right from conceptualization to research prototyping wireframing development every single thing and a very small team of about 10-12 people has actually uh got this to this stage today so the the amount of learning there is insane um so uh so that's one part and i mean if i'm wrong kunal and nikhil you can definitely correct me on the pharma and consulting side but healthtech startups would be more than happy to hire doctors what would it need to crack it i think a willingness to work very hard at least when it comes to startups um so we would hire doctors uh who are who have completed their internship and are in a gap year or are trying to figure out what to do next uh gladly provided you are uh you you are sure to work very hard and you don't look at this just as an experience or a hobby joining because for us it's all it's it's really we don't have the bandwidth to uh give hobby internships so uh if you're going to work all in uh then your medical knowledge is your biggest asset and and that is the reason why a startup would hire you um that you know in some community management group or in a creator-on-boarding group or in some content development side i mean the roles are many but but the only asset along with your medical knowledge that would probably be required as a willingness to work very hard uh yeah about pharma and consulting you can nikhil can you tell us go ahead please yeah so i i have a i mean agree to your point rohan that it's very tough to get into some of the top notch pharma companies and medical device companies but let me give you an example from my own company i mean we have an associate director who is a you know medical lead and now a therapy area lead also they both uh joined our company as you know mbbs graduates now the the level at which you join also matters you know how uh you want to pursue that journey so let's say you want a head office based role to start off after an mbbs and i mean that's that's highly impossible unless you know the founder of that particular you know organization but let's say you want to start from the base and you want to let's say start from the regional role there are opportunities in pharma companies as well there are openings in pharma companies let's say not the big mncs per se but smaller pharma companies definitely will give you an opportunity to go for a regional medical advisor or a zonal medical advisor or even you can definitely climb up the ladder and if you do well i can tell you this associate director who is handling international medical affairs he joined our company in 2010 after his mtbs and now this is 2020 he's an associate director i i would not have seen any associate director after completing a pharma md uh if let's say he only had completed his pharma md it would have taken five more years so i don't think he would have completed and joined as an associate director now in 2020 with five years of experience but having said that if you are really passionate you will have to start from the base in whichever sector you go even in a startup i think if it's netflix i don't think rohan will you know offer you a director level role it will definitely be something like a medical writer or i don't know an associate i mean i'm just guessing but you will have to go from the basic you know role and if you perform i think doctors i tell you doctors are the most hardworking creatures on this planet and if you perform well you will definitely you know get into some of the top notch positions you just look at the no artist ceo global ceo he is a doctor and he is the global ceo you can just imagine that that's all i want to say your uh name is not visible here in a startup it it your pg will matter if your startup is in the same area as your pg is so if you did your ophthalmology and then uh you go ahead and create a device is which is used in some sub sub speciality of hostile then it's probably going to be useful but most startups don't work that way uh most of the people who end up founding something or setting up something are generally uh in health care for patients or whatever so they're not very specialty focused so but yeah maybe in pharma and uh medieval and hospitals uh a pg degree after a phd degree you might definitely be a lot more respected uh then you would be uh after just in the audience i think uh even yeah let's take uh yeah yeah so go ahead and kill i'll just look at the other questions right so there are specific startups like wealthy and veto which are you know focused on on diabetes or chronic disease management and you know certain other startups like uh i mean cloud9 was also startup but now it's not anymore but if focused in the obgyn space so you know if there are specific startups like this that either you're excited by or want to join then uh you know postgraduate degree will you know definitely give you the edge having said that it's not a prerequisite especially for the startup space and i think adding to your point rohan about you know consulting firms so uh the issue with consulting firms is uh you know they like to uh uh you know optimize processes everywhere right so which is why uh they've got like a standard process of recruiting from post mba pools from iit pools etc uh and again these consultancies in india are you know very nascent in their you know infancy stage they've been around for at max 10 12 years which is extremely recent so they haven't widened their pool uh you know just recently bane has started hiring cas who don't come you know from the iits or or you know have a post i am background and i'm pretty sure that pool will widen so if we take the heuristic of how many people have made it to pharma or how many people have you know made it to consulting uh the the percentage will be really low and i think that can also be backed by the fact that a lot of people are not uh you know uh improving on their skill set uh required for this uh improving and polishing the cvs required for this and then applying accordingly right so uh you know if you just look at from a research perspective it could be dependent on that as well so you know would encourage people to look at research these roles and try out for them for sure but you know definitely pharma there is an opportunity and in the health tech space there is an opportunity there are a couple of questions around placements uh so one question is around uh so three questions uh one is uh do doctors have the same chances or same opportunities as non-doctors after uh for placements at the end of the school year second do engineers have an edge over doctors uh when it comes to placements and third what kind of salaries can what kind of career options and salaries can doctors who pursued mba hope to make and how does it compare vis-a-vis their mdms fears so i think in terms of career options uh companies that come to campus uh do not make a distinction uh between a doctor and an engineer uh the distinction is made in the candidate's mind so um you are far more likely to carry baggage with you that i am a doctor uh the company uh you know if it's coca-cola on the other side if it's in the stand unilever on the other side it could be a goldman sachs or a deutsche bank or a bane or a mckinsey i am assuring you that they love the diversity so they uh really appreciate the different perspective that you will bring into their teams as long as you are game they are more than game to have you in i haven't ever missed out on a short list or failed to crack an interview simply because i was a doctor the uh the problem is really with us uh because we've spent five and a half years in healthcare uh because we love it i mean most of us end up falling in love with it in that journey so we don't want to let go of healthcare so you will always try to look for an opportunity which is in healthcare or touching healthcare so if if you are somebody who doesn't mind foraying into uh selling laptops you can join lenovo uh or xiaomi uh or any company they will absolutely not have a problem so yeah so that's one um second do engineers have an edge over doctors in placements again for the same reason uh i don't think they have any edge like kunal will say uh we are very hard working and if uh you know if we if we want to do something we'll probably end up achieving it so before placement a fair bit of preparation happens so you prepare various kinds of cases and situations and stuff i think we would be reasonably good at it i think the mbbs training uh is has an edge over the engineering training because mbbs has a huge people component you have your peers you have your resident doctors you have your consultants and you have your patients and these do expose you significantly to human uh interpersonal uh situations uh which which does give you an edge compare that to an engineering which is fairly uh uh transactional uh in that sense right they don't have that much opportunity to interact with people uh in a typical course so uh i think they don't have an edge you have an edge um in terms of compensation and what kind of career options are there so if you are somebody who has no baggage in your mind uh then everything is an option but let's for for a moment assume that you have baggage because i had baggage i think kunal had baggage and nickel had baggage because nikhil is also very proud of doing healthcare consulting uh and kunal clearly is in a pharma company doing healthcare and i am clearly doing healthcare so i think all of us here are people who had baggage and 95 of the time you will have baggage because as i said so you spend five and a half years in medicine uh you you really start liking it and you know how much impactful it is and you want to not probably practice but you still want to be in healthcare and make it work so if you do have baggage then the options uh are not too many um so so you have the pharma industry uh which is a huge option which will include pharma biologicals devices uh right then you have the tech industry health tech industry and then you have consulting broadly you know these are three major groups of employers then there is public health but not too many people go out of mba and go to public health uh the route to public health probably goes slightly differently it goes from an mph or it goes from a and then joining one of the global organizations so uh and the fourth uh is uh healthcare delivery so you join uh apollo or patch labs or any of the delivery organizations so that's fourth but again i have seen very few people go into the delivery side uh most people will end up going to either pharma or consulting uh or startups uh or health tech large high tech companies so these are in terms of the options these are options which you probably you will be looking at not the options which your b school gives you and rohan i would probably add uh fmcg now as well so i think this trend is started in the past two three years where you know companies like hul png all of them are building their consumer health care right so again for for the benefit of audience uh when he says hul png uh probably for you uh they seem like very random names or very simple names but they are the most coveted companies on campus so uh the huls and png's are the mckinseys and veins of the marketing world so to make a career in an hr or png is fascinating um so yeah if that is opening up then it's a really good area opening up to doctors and in terms of compensation i think the question uh is very unfair because there are no case to case trials conducted right how much would i have made if i had gone and done specialization and because you can't separate me out of my degree uh i have a certain intellect i have a certain potential i could have made x there and i am making say 1.2 x here so to that extent it's a fairly uh difficult question to answer uh but one one thing is for sure um you start earning a lot more money on the mba side a lot earlier uh so that is undeniable um that because if you get into residency uh you're making 60 70 000 rupees 80 000 rupees a month uh and after that also if you're a senior resident or or a junior consultant your your salary's ballpark is going to be between 80 000 rupees to 1 lakh 21 like 25 000 rupees a month um but the problem is that all of this revenue i mean income starts coming after your education is over um and that takes fairly long so uh mba plus doing an mba means that by the time your peers are in their third year uh you are starting to earn money uh and your peers would probably have to go ahead and do a rural internship of a year after that pg and probably go ahead and do a fellowship or a dmdmv or something and this is not something this is fairly common now because now nobody stops at pediatrics right so everybody wants to do uh pediatric neurology we have a oncology if you are medicine you want to do cardiology neurology if you are cardiologist you want to do electro physiology uh so so the specialization actually delays the point at which you start making that uh sizeable monthly income it's a call it's a personal call i mean i'm not saying you should not do that and eventually so if you take a snapshot at 40 years or 45 years how many people are making what kind of money i think it's uh if you turn out to be a really successful uh cardiologist gastroenterologist neurologist neonatologist i think you'll be making a fair bit of money so um look beyond uh beyond one lakh rupees a month everything is a bonus uh you don't really need uh 30 lakh rupees a month to survive right so uh and to that extent both are good careers uh but but medicine is a very safe career for sure it's a it's a very safe uh very uh evergreen kind of a career recession proof as they say um and uh mba uh exposes you to far more cyclical careers there will be ups and downs um and as they say so higher the risk higher the reward so there is a slightly more volatility in an mba career um but you know people find ways and people generally do well uh do all right um but yeah so if you yeah go ahead and do that i'll add another perspective to this right so as a doctor your earning will typically start at 30 to 33 but it will you know go go on well beyond 60 right like i mean my dad is 61 now and he's still got like 10 15 years ahead of him to practice so you've got like you know longer time frame while typically in a corporate you will start earning at the age of 25 but around 55 60 you will uh you know look at retirement and your companies will be uh pushing you out of the door right so that time frame is another thing and uh potentially you know i can probably add numbers uh to this as well because i think uh you know although the placement reports are in the public domain so if you just go and google any of the iim placement reports you will get something called as the median salary that companies are offering now nowadays right so it's in the ballpark of about 18 to 22 lakhs for uh you know some of the top institutes in the country so you know you can put that uh number to play as well when you're thinking about the students so is that yeah so if you graduate from uh uh if you graduate from a uh elite uh b school and uh by that we could mean say the top uh top six or seven uh b schools in the country uh then uh the uh the salary that you would be making at the age of 25 would be at least two two and a half lakh rupees a month uh if not more uh again unfair comparison uh here you're talking about the top six b schools um yeah you you go ahead and do your cardiology from ames or pj chandigarh or from neo i am sure you will come back and earn a lot more so uh uh so yeah this is a important thing but whenever uh people who have great academic careers in medicine or a very very sound family background a very sound medical background clinical background if you are actually exploring mba as an option you need to tell yourself that i will not settle for anything less than the top five or top seven colleges because what you are leaving behind is substantial um you're not somebody who has nothing to lose uh you actually are giving up something substantial you are a bright medical uh future consultant with reasonable family background if you want to give that up it has to be for something better or bigger or potentially bigger so in that situation i think getting it from a top b school becomes very important uh if you are not doing well in medicine uh if you are barely scraping through then you could expand that top five to top 15 or top 20 uh because then you have relatively less to lose right kunal i want you to add your perspective on that in pharma industry uh do we get any salary pokes considering we are medicals uh in uh consulting or the general we understood but what is this situation in pharma so um i think i have a point to make uh on the previous uh you know question as well about the money like see money is not everything to be honest uh you know after a point you really don't need that money so another day what you what what change or what purpose you have in your life what you want to make out of your career is something which is very very important how you want to see your family your your peers you know how you want to contribute to the society i think that is more essential than money so even a doctor who is let's say earning 5 lakh or 10 lakh rupees a month might not be happy with what he is doing but there would be a doctor who might be earning 20 000 a month and very peaceful and content with his life so i think i would not judge money with the placement package which actually comes out of a b school definitely you know these companies pay good amount and if you are a performer i think they they pay you i mean they give you increments they give you appraisals they give you bonuses everything but at the same time what what exactly you want in your life so if you are behind money you can make money if by in any profession for that matter but let's say you have a purpose like rohan i think he has built this whole platform if if if it was money i don't think rohan would have uh you know left his career after an im he would have joined a you know good company medical device or a pharma or even a consulting and he would have been making you know crores today but it's it's about what he wants to give back to the society with this whole platform with this whole initiative which he has started i think that is more important at the same time if we look at nikhil i think nikhil his parents i don't know your father is a doctor that's what you mentioned he could have very well continued in the same profession and he could have you know earned more money than what his father is earning but at the same time he might have a broader vision to his life in my case i don't have any doctor parents or none of my family members are doctors so one thing was very clear in my mind that whatever i do i mean i should be peaceful so one one thing is very clear in life whatever you want to do in life i think whenever you sleep at night you should be peaceful and contentful i mean if if you don't get a good night's sleep then there is a problem with whatever job you are doing whatever money you are making so i would urge all the you know people who want to pursue an mba don't look at the money part of it you will make money being a doctor or being an mba and like i said mbbs degree you know it's like an insurance for you i mean you will make money at any point of life at any cost so don't go behind money uh definitely look at the larger purpose and see what you want in life so in my case i think i got a lot of opportunity i traveled uh the whole world almost the whole world because of my mba which i might not have got if i had done a post graduation i have met so many people from so many countries i have worked in so many different geographies so all those things are something which i really like and i have been doing that and that is my passion so i think end of the day it's about whether you are sleeping peacefully or not i think that is something which is very important in life yeah definitely a couple of uh so uh before we yeah there are a couple of questions uh so i think ayush has been yeah since uh some time um so one of the things mba along with the other pgp yeah so uh can we do simultaneously yeah so ayush's question is uh if uh we can uh simultaneously i don't think you can do uh you know if you plan to do your mba after your ms surgery that's a fair option if you're very passionate about surgery you should definitely go for it because you know the whole thing is to find your passion if you found your passion in surgery then why uh you know then just go ahead and become a surgeon first uh again seat mil right so uh and if you're finding a seat then you're probably very lucky so uh but doing it at the same time uh very very difficult uh i mean one you can't do a good mba uh along with anything uh so if you are doing surgery and if you're doing a remote mba weekend mba part-time mba none of those programs are actually equivalent of a proper mba you don't get the kind of academic rigor in those programs you don't get the opportunity to do good group work uh you don't build the kind of alumni network and uh the world and the industry doesn't take that degree seriously that's the honest truth about most weekend or part-time programs so it's much better to do proper full-time mba whether it's a two year or one year is is okay um and it really depends on the life stage but with residents yeah also with hectic residents exactly so it just won't be practical to do it together um i was also asked about some good online courses uh which can be taken i don't think i understand the question very well so could you please rephrase it uh we'll take that and so before we quickly move on uh to the last segment once that i wanted to talk about the founding experience like many of us have that desire to start our own venture but what should we keep in mind what are those things that we should look for is it we hear a lot of glorious stories we read about it but is it that simple um you know in entrepreneurship every story is uh very different uh and therefore uh uh you know some people may have had it easy but most people have not had it easy and as they say he worked hard for 20 years and then he was an overnight success uh so so most of the times uh you will see this it's also one of my favorite concepts it's called suddenly then gradually gradually then suddenly most things you will see that phenomenon everything around you you will see gradually then suddenly so success comes slowly so if you want to go ahead and start up then be prepared for a long grind um that's one um [Music] can you start up you asked that question earlier can i give cat can i clear cat the answer is yes can you start up the answer is yes i don't think a kunal shah or a siddha or a mark zuckerberg or i mean matsuka and elon musk are different but i don't think most founders are made of different material or dna or anything they are just normal people there's a lot of luck is one thing you need to appreciate um and so the so when you choose to go the entrepreneurial route uh you have to tell yourself that there is a lot of luck here um it's difficult to give you a percentage but far more luck than there is in a non-entrepreneurial uh professional career uh so so even in a professional career luck will play a role um you need to get lucky and get a good manager you need to get a good posting you need to be working on an interesting vaccine project when covered hits so so luck is obviously there but in entrepreneurship it's everything is luck so so there's far more impact of luck and you have to accept uh the outcome substantially uh but yeah i think everyone can start up uh there is no uh thing about the most important thing is the problem that you want to solve and the idea that you work on because once you have a really good idea i think things do start falling in place if you have the perseverance and if you can stick with it how do you get the idea just look around you look at the world find problems uh find big problems to solve you know that's that's exactly i mean i'm just summarizing it in very brief we can we can have a long conversation on this but uh people who are interested uh i would recommend you uh follow three or four resources you can write it down you can google them all of them have their own blogs all of them have their own websites but these are people worth reading uh so their blogs are worth every word in gold so one one person is called sam altman s-a-m-a-l-t-m-a-n sam altman another person is called peter thiel he's someone you would have definitely heard of peter thiel's book zero to one is also uh the most commonly recommended book for on entrepreneurship but peter thiel's block is amazing so you can read peter thiel's blog you can read you can go and check out y combinator and their blog the content on the y combinator blog is just astounding it's it's extremely valuable content so instead of me you know wasting time here and trying to tell you a significantly filtered version of that golden insight i think i would rather uh recommend that you hit this site so y combinator sam altman peter thiel um michael siebel uh he's on youtube so michael sieber is the ceo of y combinator but his videos on youtube are amazing uh reid hoffman who founded linkedin so these are some amazing thinkers and writers uh on the entrepreneurship and startup world if you will just spend some time uh reading their articles listening to their podcasts uh i think a lot of clarity will emerge to you about what uh starting up is uh etc etc the security person is here to tell me to leave uh we have actually extended the time a lot and there is a lot to talk about it's okay i mean we have hardly anything for fighting but yeah so just wrapping up uh that segment on uh founding experience we can talk about my founding experience later because i think it's just a story uh and there are many such stories so uh maybe some other day but let's touch upon some uh important unanswered questions if there are one yeah uh ayushi is asking about uh the collab that the courses are available uh like if you you can do simultaneously as well along with your degree so uh do you recommend that like i am he i am he has on their portal or some other uh one portal he has mentioned they have it so do you recommend that and will that do the purpose yeah i think uh uh you know all of this will help uh so even when i was studying mbbs i took a lot of courses uh at an institute called ahmedabad management association not ima but ama which was just supposed my house uh i think it does help so it it exposes you to that field that you're sort of enamored by and it brings you closer to that uh you will probably start liking it more or you'll realize that this is not for me uh it will it's also a great signal to the cat committee who's interviewing you a year later or to the corporation or the startup who is interviewing you later that you're keen and curious and uh adventurous so i think uh these are great but don't over estimate them these are just that they are just your priming courses they can't build careers uh you know they are not valuable degrees or certificates uh but yeah they are good to have so so definitely go ahead and do it it's a great signaling it's a great uh you'll pick up good knowledge uh you'll start learning more about that space so you should you should definitely take up these programs whenever you get the chance but they don't replace your normal pg degree or your mba or mha or anything else that you're considering right and you have been into a lot of uh you have laid a lot of healthcare engagements before so could you quickly tell us about uh what exactly is healthcare uh consulting uh and we can ask mikhail as well about consulting uh consulting is about problem solving um a consultant work is very similar to a doctor's work but it is for a business so a business typically comes to a consulting firm with a problem uh and the consulting firm has to do a diagnosis uh and suggest a solution so that's what consulting is about so management consulting is basically uh being a doctor to a business enterprise and therefore management consulting in healthcare is being a doctor to a healthcare enterprise in problem so the kind of engagement i'll just give you examples of the engagements which i would have run and will give you a good idea so there was a hospital in raipur which was running on full occupancy which was actually running 110 occupancy which means that there were 250 sanctioned beds but they were putting up beds in the corridors uh in the in the peak season uh but their profit margin their ebitda as it is called was only about seven percent now a typical multi-speciality hospital with 200 to 300 beds is expected to have a 20 22 percent a better margin so clearly there was something wrong uh ebitda generally goes low when your occupancy goes low because your resources are not utilized your manpower is not utilized but here there is full utilization beds are full ots are full patients are there but they are not making a profit so uh so this is a client the client comes to you and then you get into it you you start gathering data data comes from within and outside so from within it comes in the forms of actual data from the mis uh it also comes from doctors and ceos and management and nurse heads and everybody and then it comes from outside so from outside means from patients from the hospitals vendors and partners and other doctors in the city who will give you a lot of feedback about what's going on what's wrong etc you gather all of this uh you go back you put it all together and then you come come with some differential diagnosis key it could be a or b or c and then you order a few more tests or you make some small interventions and then see if it works out and then in a two to three month period typically you arrive at a solution uh and then there is a three to six month or a 12 month implementation of that solution which happens which is the implement implementation phase of the engagement so this was one example another typical study which comes is when a client comes to you and says so let's say a large group like apollo hospitals will come and say i want to set up a hospital in lucknow they are not in lucknow today so what do you say should we do it if yes what specialities uh which part of lucknow uh should we be upscale or downscale what should be our pricing which doctors should we recruit how much should we pay to the doctor so the consultant will then come in and draft this entire proposal and do a business model and then tell apollo that it's going to take you three years to break even therefore your project cost will be only 150 crores to build the hospital but you're going to run into losses of the first 30 crores or 40 crores for two years so this is what a consulting firm does now i mean let's take a step back uh not get to micro into consulting but uh what consulting does is um teach you a very good problem solving uh one um it it makes you comfortable with data because there's a lot of data you need to work with and it helps you work with a very smart peer group because the good consulting firms generally hire from very good institutes and these are really great people uh so um you generally uh uh working on complex cases and solving them fast so uh the overall experience is fairly good and in the process you end up building a reasonable alumni network i'm sorry not alumni professional network so for example in the fourth four and half years that i was in consulting i had the chance to work with apollo care manipal and multiple pe funds work hard multiple organizations and you end up building a good relationship with top management in most of these places which could be significantly helpful when you decide to launch your own venture so your first customers your first trial customers your first adopters could be coming from this network so anybody who is into an mba and uh not 100 sure of what they want to do consulting is a great option to delay the decision point so you could work for three years in consulting and then figure out that right so uh one option obviously is to continue into consulting forever like 10 years 20 years and become a partner in the consulting firm which is obviously the most senior most position in a consulting firm and also the most lucrative uh both from a financial and respect point of view uh but you could take a call at four and a half years like i did uh uh that um yeah i i've had enough of consulting i learned a lot uh and now it's time to try something else uh then you could get into a pharma or you could get into a hospital delivery or you could get into a startup uh and so on so uh yeah people join consulting for the love of it but people can also join consulting because they're not sure and they want to delete the decision point so it will make you uh build your network and learn a lot and figure out a lot of things other than what it is yeah i mean see if you if you join pharma uh then you have mobility but you have mobility within pharma more or less it becomes relatively difficult for you to move sub sectors within health care right now there's no hard rule you know there's nothing like never so people will move but i'm just generally saying okay generally you've spent three years in pharma it'll become a little difficult now kunal spent six years in pharma he will say that my biggest friend is in parma my knowledge my network my understanding is in pharma so from astrazeneca he might think about going to pfizer or rosh or novartis or wherever and he might move from india to your opera singapore or whatever uh compare that to moving into health would be a slightly more challenging decision for him not that he can't make it or won't make it but i'm just generally saying that uh whereas consulting is a generalist role uh a jack of all master of none so you could comfortably and consulting is actually made up of multiple small careers so when you're working on a pharma case you wear the head of a pharma person obviously you're not implementing and you're nowhere near the ground but you still start getting the jargon some data some relationships some understanding then again after 12 months you're in devices you start wearing that hat so uh you could look at consulting as a mishmash of a few careers actually no i agree with you rohan you go from you know being a generalist doctor as an mbbs to a generous business guy as an mba to you know generalist problem solver so yeah yeah absolutely it's very very similar uh obviously you know the uh types of projects obviously differ consulting firms to consulting firms uh and your bain does a lot of non-health care related projects as well but again similar story you are the doctor to an organization where uh you know the client comes to you and they're like hey we want to increase our sales or hey which country should we expand to or hey how do we uh you know launch a virtual care platform for our organization or you know how do we uh you know improve the the uh you know patient uh uh count etc how do we improve the patient satisfaction uh how do we optimize our ots so all of these questions uh and you know the questions can be as vague as uh hey what do we do in the next five years or uh what's going to happen uh how is the government going to change uh you know the game for pharma how are they gonna you know cap prices all of that and they just give you a problem and uh you have to solve that problem for them so that's that's how it typically works i think rowan summarizes really well right so we have seen some great career opportunities we have learned a lot about cat prep so before we start we wrap up the session i have one round for you all everyone's are you one no uh just for kunal there's a question on pharma from utsavi so if you can just take that so uh the question is if i had interest in pharma and finished my mbbs what are steps to start preparation so how should she prepare for a career in pharma so after an mbvs i think there are two routes which you can take one is definitely an md pharma you know which you can pursue and then get into any of the pharma companies as say a medical affairs person so that is one route which is a very uh you know traditional route which doctors take but if let's say you want to get into pharma from a marketing or you know management perspective then an mba will definitely help you get into the space but i i find it i mean like i said earlier as well it is very difficult if you directly want to get into pharma from an mbbs role i mean it would be more like a base role which you will have to start with be it sales or medical affairs as a zonal manager which at times is very difficult but you can definitely try that but the best route to enter pharma easiest route for a doctor is to pursue an md pharma and then get into a pharma company or let's say any other branch of medicine will also help you in fact i have seen internal medicine doctors getting into pharma into the medical affairs space and then climbing the whole corporate ladder from the commercial perspective and they becoming business heads and vice presidents and you know the ceos of the company and of course there is this whole different route through mba which you can pursue as well which is also quite promising because that route is uh is more from a more from what a pharma company actually wants you know pharma companies want doctors with a management acumen so definitely an mba will help you and mba like rohan said it will really help if you do it from the top these schools say the top 10 but after that any mba which you do i mean that will really not add much to your you know future growth from a for growth perspective you will have to struggle a lot so if you are jumping into mba make sure that you end up in some of the top b schools and get placed in the best pharma companies possible uh or else you will have to start from there would you also quickly talk about the difference between medical affairs side career and medical or the marketing side career pharma industry yeah so i think so any pharma not just pharma company for that matter any medical device company or any healthcare company which is having products related to medicine you know pharmaceuticals and devices has a commercial team which is basically into selling now commercial team is divided into a sales team and a marketing team just to give a macro perspective and there is this whole medical affairs team which kind of builds uh the value proposition uh from a medical or a science perspective because let's say there is a you know there is a knee knee joint which is a knee replacement device so you will have to have a medical team which basically looks at the validation of that particular joint and how it has to function in a body what is the science behind it and how you know the doctors should pursue that particular science so that is what a medical affairs you know role pursues of but let's say there is a commercial role it basically talks about how you going out and selling it in the market how you position it how you strategize it the whole stp of the marketing framework which will come into picture so medical affairs is an extension of what you have been doing in md pharmacology or to to put it in a simple way but having said that i think medical affairs role will also give an edge to you if you want to you know climb up the you know corporate ladder and pursue a commercial role because i have seen a lot of medical affairs guy and just mbbs guys being associate directors and directors uh both in commercial and non-commercial roles it's not actually necessary to have md pharma you can go via both the roots and both have its pros and cons this is amazing yes but mbbs will be a bit difficult um like i said earlier you might have to start from the very lower segment i also wanted to ask you about the growth ladder actually i had read it in a book called strong medicine by arthur halley and i got that perspective from there how is the growth ladder so we start from management training position and then there is a top ladder so uh could you just quickly tell how it is and how quickly can we go on that so uh quickly you know just put it across usually you start as a management trainee where you are put in a sales role or let's say marketing role or sometimes you also get an opportunity after an mba into a medical affairs role if you want to pursue that once you complete your management training strength it is something which is similar to what you do in let's say hul or png or any of these companies after that you get into a product management or a marketing role in a pharma a company or a medical device company once you do that you become you can get into multiple other segments so there is this whole market access commercial excellence the whole pricing team then there is sales where you can again get into so there will be multiple options lateral movements which you can do after your management training state once you do that usually diversity counts of course being a medical guy or a medical person counts but at the same time diverse you know roles which you do in your company really matters if you want to kind of get into a commercial leadership position so in my case i started with sales i moved into product management then i moved into branding marketing then i moved into internal international business now i am doing a bit of digital uh so i have that diversity and now i can you know get into some other leadership roles going forward so uh that is how the ladder is and you can move laterally you can move vertically it all depends on what you want to pursue and the best thing about you know this space is you you can decide one fine day you wake up and decide that i want to get into xyz sector or a role you can you know put your paper and apply somewhere else or you can talk to our manager and you know discuss where you want to get into unlike a medical career where you will have to go to that particular hospital or a different hospital but see the same sort of patients and treat the same you know kind of this thing right so oh rohan is driving back so we really want to understand you as a person and i have two quick questions i hope your answers are rapid and full of fire so uh should i start with rohan's are you or nikhil or canal you decide guys so let's start from nikhil uh quickly your favorite pastime football playing football a series that you would recommend everyone here dirty money on netflix your favorite uh social media handle and why oh i would have to say uh plexus md because i don't really believe in social media but that's generous a song that makes you feel relaxed uh by you that's it that's it your favorite ug life memory uh aim strip so second year almost here a thing you wish you had done differently during your b-school life started up anything like start-up anything even if it was just even during your b-school yeah absolutely it's it's never too early to start up yeah your favorite podcast oh i i don't really listen to podcasts okay well done so over to you kunal your favorite author your favorite author author i like uh usually the writer of sapiens he has written some great books if not mba then what which alternate career option i i would have been into sports cricket okay after mba if not farmer then what after mb if not okay your favorite b-school memory b-school uh i think one one favorite thing which i always had was among the 250 uh you know candidates i was the only doctor so i was the treating doctor on campus so that that's really amazing to be uh doing so you just mentioned you would have started up if not pharma then a startup that you wish you had started so i had actually thought of something like a zomato for doctors way back in 2013 while i was doing my mba okay that's interesting uh your favorite app on your phone now it's matrix i think it's netflix because i have downloaded it in both ios and android i mean i have this is my wife's phone which i'm using right now come on cornell come on i really appreciate it but but your second favorite app uh i i i like netflix because i like watching netflix so i think i've started watching friends i mean i might be the last person on this earth who started watching friends like last week i i i never started friends and this is when i started okay and i have just started friends that's how it is it was nice uh rohan sir to you now uh the first yeah so uh disclaimer first uh nikhil did really well uh and i can't come anywhere close to it level i can probably compete in here we don't have any kind of pampers or gifts it's not possible yeah we'll definitely do something so that the first word that comes to your mind when i say i am ahmedabad um it's not a word but the two best years of my life uh the movie that you would like to recommend everyone here yeah i'm not good at these kind of questions yes yeah no it's a it's a very pre-cat movie now so yeah so before your cat definitely watch that okay if not health care items then with sector um i told you this is not going to be rapid fire but uh yeah probably something in [Music] poverty so bottom up a book that you are reading currently or have finished recently lots of interesting books actually so i uh i generally read seven eight books at the same time uh but yeah some of the uh really good books so i there's this book called signal and the noise uh by nate silver which i really recommend uh it's it's very good and that book along with a book called uh thinking in bets by annie duke um so the interesting thing which both of these actually drive is uh they teach you to think in probabilities everything so uh when when they ask you india england uh don't come with an answer unless obviously it's emotional then it's a different matter uh but but don't bet uh uh think in probabilities always so both these books uh drive strongly on that notion but there are a lot of books but yeah these two came to mind first your favorite podcast so there is this podcast called masters of scale by reed hoffman it is amazing and um there is uh one another podcast called the art of manliness uh it is nothing like the name suggests uh but it's really good so you can check this out i've done so all three of you like few answers full of bursts of brilliance and some silences yeah and thank you making us feel like celebrities for a moment yeah i just go for it we can see lot of emotions here okay so on that note on that rapid and nostalgic note i'll just wrap up the session here thank you so anybody who's listening here uh if if there is uh if you need to organize a webinar or if uh wherever you study or work you need to organize a webinar you can get in touch with us on the support id and we'll be more than happy to host it on netflix we really want netflix to become the destination for all amazing discussions in medicine instead of something happening on zoom something happening on webex you won't be able to discover it find it re-assess it re-access it and so on so we really urge you to connect us with the organizers and use this platform for free to host your webinar and for our users it will be amazing content that we can bring it to them that way so thank thanks thank you you have some amazing clubs that you can explore once you just go back from the session there are some interesting sessions lined up this weekend from some amazing faculty so just explore that and stay tuned on netflix thanks kunal nikhil rohan it was pleasure talking to you i learnt a lot

BEING ATTENDED BY

Dr. Sivashankari. P & 281 others

SPEAKERS

dr. Nikhil Hegde

Dr. Nikhil Hegde

MBBS | IIM Calcutta | Consultant at Bain & Company

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dr. Rohan Desai

Dr. Rohan Desai

Founder & CEO, Medflix

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dr. Kunal  Joshi

Dr. Kunal Joshi

MBBS | MBA | Senior Brand Lead - AstraZeneca

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dr. Nikhil Hegde

Dr. Nikhil Hegde

MBBS | IIM Calcutta | Consultant at Bain & Co...

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dr. Rohan Desai

Dr. Rohan Desai

Founder & CEO, Medflix

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dr. Kunal  Joshi

Dr. Kunal Joshi

MBBS | MBA | Senior Brand Lead - AstraZeneca

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